Really interesting analysis. My head kinda hurts now though because it connected me with my utter exhaustion regarding the very narrow stories we need to live and love within. That are so insanely binary. The justification that needs to occur when you don’t fit into it all. These narratives don’t reflect in any way the myriad ways there are to be human. I recently completed a psychosexual therapy training and there was a woman who cried from sheer relief that she was able to express her preferences in front of a group of people who didn’t instantly shame her for them.
Why does the pendulum have to swing in such an extreme way before it settles??? Pride becomes supremacy so quickly in some of these dialogues!
P.S. Monogamy on the surface but polyamory underneath also dovetails nicely with a narcissistic/attachment disordered and atomised society I think? We are so desperate to be someone’s special ‘one’ - to be elevated and lifted above all others that the ego won’t allow us to explore and enjoy and appreciate other embraces. Although people clearly do anyway as we are so hungry for the strokes.
Saying that, I do think some restraint can be helpful given the whole STI issue which may or may not be a problem for bonobos.
Plus, sex has now been commandeered by our unquenchable thirst for dopamine. We forgot about the oxytocin bit so it’s confusing re: what exactly people are chasing through sex. A sexually liberated world is different from a sexually addicted world in my eyes. Nervous systems could be regulated rather than revved up by it 🤷🏼♀️
“A sexually liberated world is different from a sexually addicted world in my eyes. Nervous systems could be regulated rather than revved up by it” - this is brilliant.
god i really agree re: gender essentialism via animal comparisons… points to a massive bugbear i have with lowering the standards of our discourse when we believe we’re somehow morally superior in our end goal. drives me up the wall. i also really resonate with ur take on monogamy / polyamory. as an afab woman i feel a lot of sexual freedoms don’t feel as available to me because of safety concerns. i know not everyone has that experience but i do, and i’ve never heard someone articulate it so well, let alone a guy. so thank you for listening and giving a shit. and also men are great and deserve to be liberated from patriarchy, without being reduced to a fucking bee lol.
I find your posts so interesting to read because they do genuinely trigger me…but in like, an educational way.
And it made me think that probably a lot of these hypothetical discussions about societal role reversals are probably also laid out by triggered women. I think it’s so fucking hard to have these discussions objectively because so many women are so damaged by what they’ve experienced (not saying men aren’t too).
I was trying to imagine the world you’re describing and again, my body goes tense when I even try because the idea of relinquishing control (like, by letting go of monogamy) feels really dangerous and terrifying. But when I soften that and remind myself that in this hypothetical world I wouldn’t have the same context/damage behind me to create that tension in my body, it feels kind of idyllic.
It would also involve dropping the ego and that’s really hard to imagine on a societal level.
Not really sure what I’m trying to say but I feel like I’ll spend all night in a rabbit hole trying to imagine different scenarios relating to this. Super thought provoking, thanks!
I’ve just written out a whole reply and the swiped my finger and deleted it haha, can’t believe it. Firstly thank you for responding and commenting publicly how you feel. It means so much to me. Sometimes if people feel uncomfortable with an approach they will just ignore or critique in private. So I really really appreciate it. For what it’s worth my mentor Donna would be over the moon to hear that it’s summoned in you a reaction and you’ve chosen to challenge and observe it. She believes that’s kind of the point of all of this. And sometimes she gets annoyed if I pull back out of a fear of inspiring that reaction. Because everything needs to be felt.
It is hard to have these discussions. And I hope I’ve made it clear that I understand why it’s like that. I too am striving for as much of an integration with the “natural world” as possible. And often I find we’re so far into the machine at this point it’s difficult to keep track of when we become it.
The philosophies I feel most drawn to seem to orientate around surrender and the relinquishing of control.
I absolutely love how you’ve framed it in that final paragraph. If words or ideas are worth anything it’s providing us with those moments of peace and potential. I dunno.
I hope I didn’t forget anything from my initial reply haha
Thank you for this - I can totally why you might choose to pull back out of fear. You're essentially challenging women's discomfort and so many women will be thinking "who the fuck is he?", and it makes sense because so many fucking losers try and chime in on these discussions from their own defensive/unconsidered position and without real intent for positive change.
I've followed enough of your work (most recently with LalalaLME) to know that you're genuinely well intentioned and you care about humans, including women's issues, so that really helps. If more of us were braver to do this stuff I think it would reeeeally bridge some gaps.
Sidenote, itt was actually so interesting listening to you on the first podcast because I felt really reactive at points. And then I got my partner to listen, we listened together, and we found ourselves agreeing to basically everything. And then when I read through all the angry replies from women, I was like...woah, this feels disproportionate? It made me curious if my second experience, listening alongside a man who I trust and who always has a balanced, curious approach himself, was what broke down my defences. It just kind of showed to me how our disconnect from each other is all feeding into this, and how even having this discussion on the internet is bad for us. We should be sat in bed, squished up next to a warm, breathing human (or a more appropriate scenario depending on context haha), to get the best results.
Yeah I totally get that. And it’s really not my intention to write these takes ever to just make women uncomfortable. With this particular angle it’s a bit of a trip because I really do believe that the discomfort itself is rooted in some kind of inverse patriarchy. I actually read an incredible Substack where a woman dissects every major religions attempts to shame and blame women for any sense of sexual autonomy. That by essentially create a mystical entity, men can claim that the authority is “beyond them”. It’s fascinating. Like the more I think about Eve as a concept / human the more I question everything in life. I should add a link to it because perhaps it’s more accessible from that angle.
I actually can’t really put into words how much your feedback on this means to me, haha. Genuinely thank you. It’s really clarified why it was good that I posted this. The Lala podcast was a big eye opener for me and I’m actually writing another piece more specifically about that whole experience. I’ve had private messages about it with a similar energy to what it is you’re saying. It’s interesting because that was the first time I had expressed some of the worries or thoughts that had begun to build up from my Internet curiosity. And you’re right, not only does the Internet create a safe space for people to engage with their shadow and more aggressive selves without immediate repercussion, it removes the potential to see and feel the effects of a conversation with an actual person in real time.
I’m really happy that even if I get things wrong you have faith in my intention. All I want is a more harmonious society because the more connected we are the harder we are to control. I feel that deeply.
Oh 100% agree with that first paragraph! I'd love to see the Substack if you know where you read it.
I also had another thought today (sorry I will stop replying at some point haha) in relation to this post, but how you said women wanted to be left alone and men want to be seen. That was so fucking interesting, like are we having a miscommunication in that alone? I wanted to correct the first part because a man came up to me in the gym, he's approached me a few times and he starts with "how are you?" and then he interrupts my answer to tell me I'm beautiful. And then today he gestured at me to take my headphones out, and he said "tie your hair up! you're too beautiful for that!"
And I fucking hate it and I did the mental gymnastics on the way home like, "I should feel complimented, right?", and I wish I'd been brave enough to do as I wanted to do, which was to go up to him and say:
"Look, I get what you're trying to do. But every time I try and speak, you talk over me, and you keep commenting on my appearance. Both of these actions suggest to me you don't care about who I am as a person, but that my perceived beauty is there to serve a purpose for you. If you want to get to know women, try GETTING TO KNOW women."
And I'm someone who doesn't particularly prioritise my appearance or that kind of energy, so imagine how draining that is for actual hot women and the regularity in which it must occur for them.
Women do want to be seen (I think), but as people and not as objects.
When I walked home I also had some of those weird eye contact moments from men and it made me think of you talking about the creepiness of those "Smart Glasses" and how men will start using them to creep on women. I think women should start using them to give a better insight on how much men don't even need to "creep", they're overt and women are pretty tired, I think. It'd be super interesting to compare a day of wearing them between a man and a woman.
How do men want to be seen? Do they want to be seen as sexual objects? (Genuine question). It feels like everyone has their wires crossed sometimes.
Yeah that part kind of just flowed out - I think I wanted to highlight an unspoken confusion around intimacy. I know and hear that a lot of men who have been radicalised have fallen foul to these scammers almost as a result of not being seen. But it’s a self fulfilling prophecy because of situations like the one you’ve described.
I’d love to give that man the benefit of the doubt and put it down to ignorance but what called “negging” is such an immature and abusive way of approaching anyone. The whole hair thing is so manipulative. Makes me feel a bit sick to think he might have adopted that as a tactic. Can’t imagine what that felt like for you. Also - you should genuinely feel safe enough to say how you feel. He needs to understand. Ideally another man would be able to check him.
I definitely think women should do an uno reverse on the glasses and film how invasive men can be. But yeah, sometimes I wonder if the men genuinely just don’t even feel like they’re there sometimes. Like I’ve seen videos when women actually respond to cat calling and the men are stunned. It’s as if being ignored is part of it? So bizarre.
My main point is that if men created a world and space where women weren’t constantly terrified of the consequences of any form of intimacy, they would ironically receive the kind of visibility I believe they crave.
Because I don’t have the added threat of physicality in regards to women, when I was younger I would fantasise about women telling me that they thought I looked good or sexy or whatever. And sometimes I even thought that I wasn’t because it happened so rarely. And I’m not bad looking so again that experience must be mad for certain guys.
Do you have the link the bee carousel? Interesting food for thought. I do feel like a matriarchal world is our only hope as humans. Feel we are pretty far off yet though 😅
I am so pleased that the algorithm led me to you 👏👏👏.
Can someone get the men reading and commenting too; I’m genuinely curious to see how this is landing with thoughtful men willing to engage with the ideas.
Yeah I’m really into it - his barren approach to existence really resonates with me, haha.
To be fair, the author does actually acknowledge the generalisations towards the end and I understand the general message. Genuinely.
I just don’t think these ideas work when they’re purely selective. For there to be real societal change we’re all going to have to confront what we’ve grown comfortable with. And I find relationship structure to be an incredibly interesting insight into that. Being how egoic a lot of it is.
Even prior to our current gender wars I’ve found it fascinating. Do you know what I mean?
😬😫 Andrew Tate is the worst kind of person ever if you ask me or anyone I know. His opinion and views are highly toxic and the way he speaks about women is frankly disgusting and the impact of his discourse on the young boys of today is insidious. I thought you were better than that! I thought you called yourself a feminist and read Bell Hooks! 🫠
Really interesting analysis. My head kinda hurts now though because it connected me with my utter exhaustion regarding the very narrow stories we need to live and love within. That are so insanely binary. The justification that needs to occur when you don’t fit into it all. These narratives don’t reflect in any way the myriad ways there are to be human. I recently completed a psychosexual therapy training and there was a woman who cried from sheer relief that she was able to express her preferences in front of a group of people who didn’t instantly shame her for them.
Why does the pendulum have to swing in such an extreme way before it settles??? Pride becomes supremacy so quickly in some of these dialogues!
This resonates with me, deeply. I totally hear you. We must get out of our heads more!! It’s so hard
P.S. Monogamy on the surface but polyamory underneath also dovetails nicely with a narcissistic/attachment disordered and atomised society I think? We are so desperate to be someone’s special ‘one’ - to be elevated and lifted above all others that the ego won’t allow us to explore and enjoy and appreciate other embraces. Although people clearly do anyway as we are so hungry for the strokes.
Saying that, I do think some restraint can be helpful given the whole STI issue which may or may not be a problem for bonobos.
Plus, sex has now been commandeered by our unquenchable thirst for dopamine. We forgot about the oxytocin bit so it’s confusing re: what exactly people are chasing through sex. A sexually liberated world is different from a sexually addicted world in my eyes. Nervous systems could be regulated rather than revved up by it 🤷🏼♀️
“A sexually liberated world is different from a sexually addicted world in my eyes. Nervous systems could be regulated rather than revved up by it” - this is brilliant.
god i really agree re: gender essentialism via animal comparisons… points to a massive bugbear i have with lowering the standards of our discourse when we believe we’re somehow morally superior in our end goal. drives me up the wall. i also really resonate with ur take on monogamy / polyamory. as an afab woman i feel a lot of sexual freedoms don’t feel as available to me because of safety concerns. i know not everyone has that experience but i do, and i’ve never heard someone articulate it so well, let alone a guy. so thank you for listening and giving a shit. and also men are great and deserve to be liberated from patriarchy, without being reduced to a fucking bee lol.
My thoughts exactly. Thank you x
👏🏽
I’m buzzing.
I find your posts so interesting to read because they do genuinely trigger me…but in like, an educational way.
And it made me think that probably a lot of these hypothetical discussions about societal role reversals are probably also laid out by triggered women. I think it’s so fucking hard to have these discussions objectively because so many women are so damaged by what they’ve experienced (not saying men aren’t too).
I was trying to imagine the world you’re describing and again, my body goes tense when I even try because the idea of relinquishing control (like, by letting go of monogamy) feels really dangerous and terrifying. But when I soften that and remind myself that in this hypothetical world I wouldn’t have the same context/damage behind me to create that tension in my body, it feels kind of idyllic.
It would also involve dropping the ego and that’s really hard to imagine on a societal level.
Not really sure what I’m trying to say but I feel like I’ll spend all night in a rabbit hole trying to imagine different scenarios relating to this. Super thought provoking, thanks!
I’ve just written out a whole reply and the swiped my finger and deleted it haha, can’t believe it. Firstly thank you for responding and commenting publicly how you feel. It means so much to me. Sometimes if people feel uncomfortable with an approach they will just ignore or critique in private. So I really really appreciate it. For what it’s worth my mentor Donna would be over the moon to hear that it’s summoned in you a reaction and you’ve chosen to challenge and observe it. She believes that’s kind of the point of all of this. And sometimes she gets annoyed if I pull back out of a fear of inspiring that reaction. Because everything needs to be felt.
It is hard to have these discussions. And I hope I’ve made it clear that I understand why it’s like that. I too am striving for as much of an integration with the “natural world” as possible. And often I find we’re so far into the machine at this point it’s difficult to keep track of when we become it.
The philosophies I feel most drawn to seem to orientate around surrender and the relinquishing of control.
I absolutely love how you’ve framed it in that final paragraph. If words or ideas are worth anything it’s providing us with those moments of peace and potential. I dunno.
I hope I didn’t forget anything from my initial reply haha
Oh no that's the most annoying thing ever haha.
Thank you for this - I can totally why you might choose to pull back out of fear. You're essentially challenging women's discomfort and so many women will be thinking "who the fuck is he?", and it makes sense because so many fucking losers try and chime in on these discussions from their own defensive/unconsidered position and without real intent for positive change.
I've followed enough of your work (most recently with LalalaLME) to know that you're genuinely well intentioned and you care about humans, including women's issues, so that really helps. If more of us were braver to do this stuff I think it would reeeeally bridge some gaps.
Sidenote, itt was actually so interesting listening to you on the first podcast because I felt really reactive at points. And then I got my partner to listen, we listened together, and we found ourselves agreeing to basically everything. And then when I read through all the angry replies from women, I was like...woah, this feels disproportionate? It made me curious if my second experience, listening alongside a man who I trust and who always has a balanced, curious approach himself, was what broke down my defences. It just kind of showed to me how our disconnect from each other is all feeding into this, and how even having this discussion on the internet is bad for us. We should be sat in bed, squished up next to a warm, breathing human (or a more appropriate scenario depending on context haha), to get the best results.
Yeah I totally get that. And it’s really not my intention to write these takes ever to just make women uncomfortable. With this particular angle it’s a bit of a trip because I really do believe that the discomfort itself is rooted in some kind of inverse patriarchy. I actually read an incredible Substack where a woman dissects every major religions attempts to shame and blame women for any sense of sexual autonomy. That by essentially create a mystical entity, men can claim that the authority is “beyond them”. It’s fascinating. Like the more I think about Eve as a concept / human the more I question everything in life. I should add a link to it because perhaps it’s more accessible from that angle.
I actually can’t really put into words how much your feedback on this means to me, haha. Genuinely thank you. It’s really clarified why it was good that I posted this. The Lala podcast was a big eye opener for me and I’m actually writing another piece more specifically about that whole experience. I’ve had private messages about it with a similar energy to what it is you’re saying. It’s interesting because that was the first time I had expressed some of the worries or thoughts that had begun to build up from my Internet curiosity. And you’re right, not only does the Internet create a safe space for people to engage with their shadow and more aggressive selves without immediate repercussion, it removes the potential to see and feel the effects of a conversation with an actual person in real time.
I’m really happy that even if I get things wrong you have faith in my intention. All I want is a more harmonious society because the more connected we are the harder we are to control. I feel that deeply.
Oh 100% agree with that first paragraph! I'd love to see the Substack if you know where you read it.
I also had another thought today (sorry I will stop replying at some point haha) in relation to this post, but how you said women wanted to be left alone and men want to be seen. That was so fucking interesting, like are we having a miscommunication in that alone? I wanted to correct the first part because a man came up to me in the gym, he's approached me a few times and he starts with "how are you?" and then he interrupts my answer to tell me I'm beautiful. And then today he gestured at me to take my headphones out, and he said "tie your hair up! you're too beautiful for that!"
And I fucking hate it and I did the mental gymnastics on the way home like, "I should feel complimented, right?", and I wish I'd been brave enough to do as I wanted to do, which was to go up to him and say:
"Look, I get what you're trying to do. But every time I try and speak, you talk over me, and you keep commenting on my appearance. Both of these actions suggest to me you don't care about who I am as a person, but that my perceived beauty is there to serve a purpose for you. If you want to get to know women, try GETTING TO KNOW women."
And I'm someone who doesn't particularly prioritise my appearance or that kind of energy, so imagine how draining that is for actual hot women and the regularity in which it must occur for them.
Women do want to be seen (I think), but as people and not as objects.
When I walked home I also had some of those weird eye contact moments from men and it made me think of you talking about the creepiness of those "Smart Glasses" and how men will start using them to creep on women. I think women should start using them to give a better insight on how much men don't even need to "creep", they're overt and women are pretty tired, I think. It'd be super interesting to compare a day of wearing them between a man and a woman.
How do men want to be seen? Do they want to be seen as sexual objects? (Genuine question). It feels like everyone has their wires crossed sometimes.
Yeah that part kind of just flowed out - I think I wanted to highlight an unspoken confusion around intimacy. I know and hear that a lot of men who have been radicalised have fallen foul to these scammers almost as a result of not being seen. But it’s a self fulfilling prophecy because of situations like the one you’ve described.
I’d love to give that man the benefit of the doubt and put it down to ignorance but what called “negging” is such an immature and abusive way of approaching anyone. The whole hair thing is so manipulative. Makes me feel a bit sick to think he might have adopted that as a tactic. Can’t imagine what that felt like for you. Also - you should genuinely feel safe enough to say how you feel. He needs to understand. Ideally another man would be able to check him.
I definitely think women should do an uno reverse on the glasses and film how invasive men can be. But yeah, sometimes I wonder if the men genuinely just don’t even feel like they’re there sometimes. Like I’ve seen videos when women actually respond to cat calling and the men are stunned. It’s as if being ignored is part of it? So bizarre.
My main point is that if men created a world and space where women weren’t constantly terrified of the consequences of any form of intimacy, they would ironically receive the kind of visibility I believe they crave.
Because I don’t have the added threat of physicality in regards to women, when I was younger I would fantasise about women telling me that they thought I looked good or sexy or whatever. And sometimes I even thought that I wasn’t because it happened so rarely. And I’m not bad looking so again that experience must be mad for certain guys.
It’s a lot.
Do you have the link the bee carousel? Interesting food for thought. I do feel like a matriarchal world is our only hope as humans. Feel we are pretty far off yet though 😅
https://www.instagram.com/p/DUYT1dVCMlP/?igsh=MXVjOXc5M2R5dmM3Zw==
I think there’s a substack too actually but hadn’t seen that version. It’s probably somewhere on here with 1000000 likes
Am I genuinely being compared to Tate?! My last Substack was pretty clear on my stance about him. I’m confused. I too think he’s abominable.
I am so pleased that the algorithm led me to you 👏👏👏.
Can someone get the men reading and commenting too; I’m genuinely curious to see how this is landing with thoughtful men willing to engage with the ideas.
What do you think about being grouped with Andrew Tate?
Yeah I’m really into it - his barren approach to existence really resonates with me, haha.
To be fair, the author does actually acknowledge the generalisations towards the end and I understand the general message. Genuinely.
I just don’t think these ideas work when they’re purely selective. For there to be real societal change we’re all going to have to confront what we’ve grown comfortable with. And I find relationship structure to be an incredibly interesting insight into that. Being how egoic a lot of it is.
Even prior to our current gender wars I’ve found it fascinating. Do you know what I mean?
😬😫 Andrew Tate is the worst kind of person ever if you ask me or anyone I know. His opinion and views are highly toxic and the way he speaks about women is frankly disgusting and the impact of his discourse on the young boys of today is insidious. I thought you were better than that! I thought you called yourself a feminist and read Bell Hooks! 🫠
Oh my god I was joking!!!! I thought you were joking when you asked the question?!
Would be interested to hear your thoughts on this essay I wrote about toxic masculinity https://thewildandthewise.substack.com/p/detoxifying-masculinity?r=1l8eam&utm_medium=ios